Thursday morning I was shaken out of my mundane weekday routine by a surprising question from my teenage daughter on the way to school. It surprised me for a couple of reasons:
1. In the past my daughter has not been open to conversing about spiritual matters.
2. None of us are morning people. No one is usually talkative, much less thinking about deep theological issues at 7:30ish. I'm certain my children's morning moods are genetically assigned by their dear old dad. I am not conversant or even pleasant company until around 10:00 most days.
So, imagine my surprise when my daughter blurts out of the blue, "Mom got mad at me the other day."
I only offered a muffled "Mmmph" as a reply: an indication for her to continue the thought.
"I told mom I didn't believe atheists would 'go down there'", she pointed her finger downward ominously. "She got really mad at me for saying that. What do you think?"
I blinked hard a couple of times and opened my mouth but no words immediately tumbled out. She had taken me completely offguard. I didn't expect this kind of question from her, but I knew it was a wonderful opportunity to present gospel truth. I tried to dissipate the morning mental fog that usually blankets my mind for the better part of the morning hours and form a cognizant reply. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit brought a scripture immediately to mind. "Well, to be honest, the bible clearly states that atheists will most certainly go to hell. Are you familiar with the famous John 3:16 passage?"
She shrugged, "I think so... "
"it starts out, 'God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life'. Belief in Christ gives us eternal life. A couple of verses later the bible tells us what happens to those who don't believe. It says that those who don't believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. Atheists don't believe that God exists. It logically follows that they would not believe that God sent his Son into the world to save them, thus they will will not trust on him to save them from their sins. Any atheist who persists in his belief will perish."
My daughter didn't say anything for a few moments. I glanced over and could tell that she was pondering this profound truth. At last she replied, "But I have friends who are atheists. I'm sure God wouldn't send them 'down there'. Jenny's an atheist, but she's really nice!"
I had to be careful here because this was no longer a mere intellectual exercise; her emotions were now involved. "God looks at things much differently than you and I do. What we may judge to be nice may be judged as sin to God, who knows our every thought and deed. People sometimes mistakenly believe since God so loves the world that he would not punish anyone for a few little sins, but the truth is, little sins to us are a very serious matter to God. Every sin we commit is an act of open rebellion to the God who created us. Yes, God is loving, merciful and compassionate but he is also a just God and justice must be served. Do you think a judge who lets a murderer go free simply because he had compassion for him is a good judge?"
She shook her head. I continued. "Well, neither can God be good or just if lets sin go unpunished. To God every sin committed against him is as offensive to him as murder is to us."
All this information appeared to burden her mind so I decided to stop at that point. I wanted her to seriously consider the holy justice and wrath aspects of God's character before plunging into his infinite grace and mercy through Jesus Christ. I allowed the severity of God's law to plow the untilled soil of her heart: to remove the thorns, thistles and rocks contained therein. When the Holy Spirit brings a strong conviction of her deep sinfulness, the gospel will suddenly become very precious to her.
Interestingly, my daughter attended adult church with me this Sunday as pastor wrapped up his series on Examples Worth Imitating with a message on the humility of Jesus. The very truths I had driven home with my daughter were reaffirmed by my pastor's point concerning Christ humbling himself purposely so as to absorb God's wrath and to secure God's grace. He boldly preached the gospel and punctuated it by reiterating what I had said concerning atheists not being saved. My pastor said that faith in Christ is the only way of salvation and if you miss him you've just plain missed it! I believe the events of this week were divinely ordained and by God's providence my daughter has both received the law that shows her need of Christ and the gospel call which commands her to repent and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of her sins. Saints, keep her in your prayers!
I remember going through a similar spell of angst for my unsaved friends when I was seventeen. Unfortunately for me I didn't have anybody to give sound answers to my questions. I began to form my own ideas about God and his judgment. In the process I erected my own personal idol. My God had similar traits to the God of the bible but I threw out all the characteristics which made me uncomfortable. My god was not the one true God. I lived for several years clinging to my idol until the glory of the living God overshadowed me and changed my heart. Hopefully, by standing up for God's truth, no matter how hard it may be to accept, I can help my daughter to resist the natural human tendency to manufacture idols instead of worshiping the God of the bible.
I'm not picking on atheists in particular in this post. I'm simply responding to a question posed by my daughter. In her mind, atheists are obviously anti-God so she earnestly wonders about their fate. Truth be told, agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, and Secular Humanists all share the same dilemna with atheists. Yes, even professing Christians can share the same fate as atheists. The question is, 'Who has called upon the name of the Lord? Who has believed our report that the forgiveness of sins lies only upon God's grace through the spilled blood of Jesus, who loved us and gave himself up for us? All men, regardless of the belief system they have either been raised with or adopted as their own, are responsible to God for either rejecting or accepting the salvation that is only available by looking unto Jesus.
The real God there knows not what is aetheist, nor waht is theist. God loves all unconditionally. All are God's children. Blame none. Love all.
ReplyDeleteThere's no hell; there's no heaven. All a mind's myth and phobia.
ReplyDeleteTypo: ...which have nothing to do with whether your religion is true or false.
ReplyDeleteJust out of morbid curiosity:
ReplyDeleteAre you okay with people being judged on belief rather than actions? Are you comfortable with that? Does it seem just to you?
(Just to be clear, I'm curious of your feelings, with have nothing to do whether your religion is true or false.)
I know that you're not deliberately picking on atheists with this post but I figured I'd give you at least some perspective from an atheist's viewpoint.
ReplyDeleteThe universe the Bible paints doesn't match up with the universe science uncovers. Since we atheists come from an outside viewpoint, when we try to decide the validity of Biblical texts we have to use the scientific method, which allows for reproducible evidence, which proves it's an effective method to test reality.
When we take this scientific minded approach to the Bible it falls short, in studies prayer has no positive effect on the ill and many other tests, thus we conclude the Bible is false. I mean the historicity of the Bible is also fairly subject (for example: there is no archaeological evidence for Jews ever being held as slaves inside Egypt, a lot of modern historians think they may have actually been a faction of Canaanites). Also, from a philosophical standpoint, an infinite punishment for a finite crime doesn't make any sense.
I know this isn't going to change your mind about any of this. Your scripture says very clearly what happens to those who commit apostasy. I'm just saying, if the Bible is supposed to be the word of God, how can so many people look at it and see so many flaws?
I liked your post ;especially the last paragraph which states ALL men are responsible unto God for either rejecting or accepting salvation available through Jesus.
ReplyDeleteSulochanosho,
ReplyDeleteUpon what authority do you make such bold claims?
Great post, Brandon. I will keep your daughter in my prayers! These are such hard things for our minds and hearts to wrestle with. I find when I talk with unbelievers or believers, they all wrestle with sin & grace, justice and mercy.
ReplyDeleteThanks very much for the post. It's amazing what our theology does to us when it barrels down from the theoretical to land right in our laps.
...and it looks like you got some new visitors dropping by with that title of yours! I'll be watching to see if sulochanosho comes back to answer your reply.
And please know, your daughter will be in my prayers tonight.
Morsec0de,
ReplyDeleteI will respond to your questions in a post.
Sisyphus Fragment,
ReplyDeleteThe trouble I find with the scientific method as applying to spiritual matters is that the rationale of finite, limited beings such as ourselves automatically limits the scope of testing reality. Since we don't possess all knowledge of all things in the universe (or outside of it) we cannot possibly process all there is to observe to make the most rational assumptions. The bible speaks of a vast unseen reality where angels and demons exist, exert influence, protect, wage war etc. God is present everywhere and upholds all creation by the word of his power. The scientific method cannot measure these realities to either prove or disprove it.
I probably will respond to the infinite punishment for finite sins in a post. It is a valid question and one I have wrestled with in the past. Thanks for posting.
Kristine,
ReplyDeleteThank you! I covet your prayers.
God Bless!
beaconlight Says:
ReplyDeleteSulochanosho,
Upon what authority do you make such bold claims?
Beaconlight, I respect your view. Variety is the beauty of this existence.
Views, words may differ - that too is the reality and beauty of this existence.
A vast phenomena of this existence still remain unknown. Scientists too nod it. Everything is a mere grappling in the dark, in this conext and sense. Religions not excluded.
Mutual trust and forbearance may play a role. We need to keep in our view the limit. Thanks.
Sisyphus Fragment,
ReplyDeleteTo speak from an atheist viewpoint, you would have to claim there's absolutely no God. In order for that to be true, one would have to have searched all possible knowledge pertaining to this universe. We (humans) don't even know a fraction of 1% of all that is or pertains to this universe. Thomas Edison once said, "We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything." For the sake of ease, let's round up--way up--and say we know exactly 1% of everything there is to know concerning the universe. In that remaining 99%, would you might think that there's the possibility of God's existence?
The trouble with the scientific method is that it is only limited to our existing knowledge, and even the possibility of the gain of a jot or tittle of more knowledge. The point is that it doesn't account for all of the unknown knowledge (the remaining 99%+) that we are totally ignorant of.
God is an eternal being who exists beyond our possible knowledge. Since He is eternal--or infinite--He cannot be discovered by our very limited and finite methods for discovering knowledge.
Hi Brandon. Good article. And, I'm praying for your daughter!
ReplyDeleteWe serve a Just and Holy God Who must punish sin. But He has chosen to show His love in that even while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
One verse that has come to mean so much to me over the past months is 2 Cor. 5:21 : "He Who knew no sin became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ".
God showed his love for us, but not at the expense of His justice. The Judge of the universe took off His robe, paid the penalty and offers payment to all who will repent from their sin and trust in what Christ did.
May we pray that eyes are opened, even as the Lord's return draws ever closer.
Tim
The "I" Must Die!
ReplyDeleteIn as much as i can 'see',
That which is of the 'I' in me,
So it is i yearn, and to Our Father cry,
For deliverance from all that is of the 'I'.
The 'I', born of "imag"ination and selfish desire,
As lust, greed, and pride, stoked a consuming fire ;-(
A fire burning out of control, as 'I' leads the way,
It's smoke concealing the fleshly mind that leads one astray ;-(
Yet even in the smoke, searing heat, and blindness of 'sight',
Truth can pierce the blackness of darkness, revealing "The Light"!
And nothing can hide from "The Light", so "Light" reveals the "I",
Allowing one to "see" clearly, and clearly the "I" must die!
But to live, yet die, seems an impossible task,
And so we need of "Our Father", the impossible to ask.
Help me to "deny myself(die to self)(die to 'I')" Father!
And as HE Helps, HE reveals more and more of "The Selfless One", The One Who leads His Brethren on "The Way to The Truth of The Life". He Who was, and is The Messiah, The Son of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL!
And as The Messiah desired above all else, so also will His Brethren desire above all else, "Father, not my will, But THY Will Be Done".......
The poem i have recorded above was begun in Creel, Chih, Mexico in '92, a time when i sought to live and experience a simple and spiritual life. Left Mexico in '93, yet returned in '04. Then on 1/26/05 the poem was completed, and 'completion' is near for each and every one of us. And for "the poor and needy", thankfully so.......
Translated, "corruptible to incorruptible" indeed and Truth.......
Home at last.......
Forever free from The "I".......
All Thanks, Praise and Glory Be Unto "Our Father".......
And while there is breath(spirit) there is hope many will "see",
"see" The "I" for what it is, and then desire to be set free!
And that Spirit that was in The Messiah shall "set you free, free indeed"!
So, There Is Hope!
For Miracles do happen!
Hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving "a love of The Truth" for they will "see" The Light that is The Messiah, they will "see" that The Life is of The Spirit(not seen with the natural eye), and most certainly not of the flesh or fleshly mind("I").......
Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(darkness) that is of this world and it's systems of religion, for "the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one"(1Jn5:19) indeed and Truth.......
Thankfully Truth is never ending.......
(Returned to this place called the u.s. of a. in June of '05, yet to return to the simplicity that is rural Mexico would be welcomed, yet i realize that in all things it must be "Father(Creator) not my will, But THY Will Be Done.......)
ehhh well they shouldn't but you have to be dead to find that out.
ReplyDeleteThis is a tough one and an excellent illustration of what happens when we have a) a lot more unchurched / agnostic / atheist households and b) more religious diversity in our populations.
ReplyDelete40 years ago, this wouldn't have even been a discussion because a) Jenny (neighbour girl) would have been a Christian of some sort and b) Pilgrim's daughter would be wondering about one or two people she knew of (but didn't know well) or about unbelievers in general.
Nowadays, we know people of so many different faiths that it's hard to imagine we will not all share in some sort of Paradise. I guess if I were to be asked if Christians would go to heaven I would say 'yes' and about everyone else who belonged to different faiths (i.e. excluding atheists) it would have to be 'I don't know but let's hope so'. Maybe Pilgrim can help me out here.
But as an extension of this question, it is easy for mainline churches to then go further and delve into moral relativism where 'anything goes' -- i.e. forget about the notion of sin. And this seems to be where we are heading at the moment. Am particularly concerned about emerging churches and what exactly they are teaching, not what they say they are teaching.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts from Pilgrim or others who would know.
Sulochanosho,
ReplyDeleteQuote: A vast phenomena of this existence still remain unknown. Scientists too nod it. Everything is a mere grappling in the dark, in this conext and sense. Religions not excluded.
I agree that religion can be a mere grappling in the dark if you define religion as man's attempt to grasp God. The Christian faith is just the opposite. It is God reaching out to man. In order to accomplish this God has revealed himself and his plan of redemption through his holy word. Since God is truth his word must also be true, every jot and tittle of it. In this way man doesn't need to aimlessly grasp at the darkness. "The secret things belong to the Lord our God but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever." (Dt 29:29)
Amen, Tim. Good thoughts. Thanks for your prayers.
ReplyDeleteFrancisco,
ReplyDeleteUmm... I don't think I get the gist of your comment.
HiddenAce says:
ReplyDelete"ehhh well they shouldn’t but you have to be dead to find that out."
Assuming that your response is to the title of the post I would heartily disagree. The main symptom of human sin is deception. We have this innate belief that we are good by nature and that in our own strength we can be pleasing to God. The exact opposite is true.
churchmouse,
ReplyDeleteDon't know if this answers your question or not, but we shouldn't give uncertain replies about people of differing faiths. All religions share a desire to perform virtuous and noble deeds but this isn't how salvation can be obtained. Our corrupt hearts prevent us from ever having pure motives in anything we do, thus our supposedly good works are destroyed. Only Christ's good works stand up to God's perfect standard of righteousness. We must agree with the word where Jesus proclaims that "I am the way, the truth and the life. No comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) Our faith in Christ and his mighty works down on our behalf can save us. We can't budge from this foundation even a fraction of an inch.
Okay, thank you, Pilgrim, for your answer! Much appreciated!
ReplyDeleteHi Brandon how are you, it has been quiet some time since I have been on your site. I am really joyful that at the appointed time that you were able to talk to your daughter about such an important subject. Gods timing is always right. I will continue to pray for your family. Remember it is Gods will that none should perish. It is our choice to believe or not to believe. Some has chosen not to believe. He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18. It is Gods authority who says so!!!!! For those who says under what authority.
ReplyDeleteIn Christ,
Floyd
hahaha I see we have some upset people here...what you say is true my friend straight across the board and whether people choose to believe and follow or not is there decision even though it is not such a good one i would rather them try jesus and let him show them that he is real rather than them going to the lake of fire because you never want to see people go there and you cant say they learned their lesson because there is no next time for them so i encourage anyone who reads this to follow the plan of salvation in acts 2:38 dont shy away from it let god into your life and let him give you peace and happiness that nothing or no one can give you....seriously no one can...i mean your live will have purpose you wont be searching for yourself way into your 40's and 50's because your identity is in christ and what he has for you no one can take away unless you give it away so my friend be encourage and continue to fight the good fight.
ReplyDeleteWell this kinda stinks for all of us if you ask me.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to be going to about 50 "hells" at once. Think of all the religions I'm not abiding to.
So by approximation, since everyone "knows" their religion is right,
every single human being who has ever died in the history of existance has gone to some other religions hell...damn...grimm outlook.
I would like to point out that religions of most sorts especially christianity and islam cause generally moral people to do immoral things. Normally Jenny would be seen as an ordinary, decent person but as soon as one applies a biblical perspective suddenly Jenny's going to hell to burn for ever and receive eternal punishment, and although you barely know the girl you are already condemning her to eternal damnation. btw on the sublect of the Christianity being the only true religion because of the bible being the word of god: how would you know? because remember now, humans are corrupt and imperfect but we claim with absolute conviction that the bibles true. Also, out of all the religious books i find the bible positively immoral. It glorifies rape, degrades women, and calls on the death sentence for homosexuals and cheeky teenagers.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible has established itself as authority based on several factors.
ReplyDelete1. Just because there has been no evidence found that Egypt had Hebrew slaves (according to you) does not mean that it is not there. There has been MUCH discovered in recent generations that was not known before.
2. Prophecies fulfilled.....there are MANY.
3.The Bible is not a scientific book, and therefore should not be held to scientific scrutiny, no more than my child's science class book should be held to spiritual scrutiny.
4. The disciples (with the exception of one) all died horrific deaths. One would not die for something they know to be a lie. What did they see and experience that made them decide that death, in the most painful ways, was to be withstood rather than to recant. There are letters that were written by those that knew the disciples. I believe it was Polycarp that was a disciple of John.
5. No other "religion" establishes it's authority by the above means that I have posted. Maybe someone more versed in apologetics can post more.
Soryy, but I feel I have to disagree with you that God is the one true way. Who's to say that the Muslims or Jews aren't correct, and you're wrong? This is simply your belief, not truth, and I feel you should let your daughter decide for herself. There are many religions, each professing to be the only one with the path to Salvation. What if every Christian in the world is bound for eternal torment because the Sikhs were correct? Surely a forgiving God would understand that in a place with so many religions, it would be human nature to make mistakes and choose incorrectly? Would he send people to Hell for making a simple mistake? Or agnostics, who aren't sure which deity to pledge their allegiance to? Or atheists, who simply try to make sense of things using logic which leads them (possibly mistakenly) to believe that there is no higher power? Again, if they're wrong, it's an honest mistake on their part. Surely a just God wouldn't send people to a place of eternal punishment for using their supposedly God-given brains to try and understand things.
ReplyDeleteAnd for those in places like Chad, where Christianity has not arrived, yet the people may live perfectly good lives. You're saying God would send them to Hell for an accident of birth? Something they can't control? Think about it.
Thoughts of a LaVeyan Satanist.
(By the way, Pilgrim, no offence was intended by my post to either you or any other and I have no intention of telling you how to raise your daughter or any other children you may have. It was personal opinion and nothing more.)
ReplyDeleteNo offense taken. I appreciate the honesty of your viewpoint. I am fascinated by perspectives outside my own worldview. It can only help me in the long run communicating the gospel to those who hold different beliefs. For instance, I had no idea what a 'LaVeyan Satanist' was until you brought it to my attention. I am now a little more enlightened by what the term 'Satanist' stands for.
ReplyDeleteI've been chewing on whipping up a brief post based off your comment. Would you mind a public interaction with your ideas?
Not at all. I am interested in seeing how a Christian might answer such questions, but it will add to the exchange if people of other faiths, with a different viewpoint to either of ours, join the discussion as well.
ReplyDeleteWow. God judges people based on their beliefs rather than their actions?
ReplyDeleteWouldn't you agree that some people are just fortunate to inherit the "correct" religion/beliefs from their parents without having to try at all? That doesn't put them on even footing with people who were born in Hindu, Muslim or Jewish households, does it? It gives them an unfair advantage.
What's the situation with a loving and kind atheist who is good and loyal to her friends whatever religion they belong to, but who just never felt the need for religion because she had her own mind to guide her? What is God going to do with her? If God decides to throw her in Hell for her beliefs rather than her actions, we have to ask ourselves, what kind of God would do that? Not a loving and kind God assuredly. Egotistical seems like a more appropriate adjective.
And if the God out there has a personality like that, then I'd rather not be in Heaven with Him. I'd rather not be in Heaven with an unjust God like that. I'd rather be in Hell with the Devil who doesn't pretend like God to be oh-so-loving and good.
And it's been a year since you posted this. I hope your daughter is still using her love for humanity to make her choices about people. She seems like a promising individual.
[...] I recently received the following comment from an adherent to the Satanist religion on the post Will Atheists Go to Hell? With his permission we’ll be having a public discourse, interacting with each other’s [...]
ReplyDeletecongrats on your daughter starting on the road to discovering truth. (doubting, asking questions, looking for evidence and thinking for yourself). i hope oneday (soon) she accepts that there is no god or miracles. or at least to use her own brain to make decisions about people and life. not some guys 2000 years ago who wrote the bible (and also beleived the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it). anyways congrats on the freethinking intelligent daughter and try not to force your beliefs on her too much.
ReplyDeletegod doesn't and can't possible exist and even if he did he is an egocentric tyrant that should be rebelled against not worshiped. heaven and hell don't exist they are just comforting illusions. what really happens when you die is you lose all conciousness and thought and self-awareness then you go into the ground and start decompising and feeding trees and maggots. it makes me happy that we are not stuck in an eternal firepit or an eternal place where you dont have to work for anything it just appears. i would get board of a life without purpose extremely quicly
please no religous hate comments or flaming
i respect the fictional charecter satan for doing what he believed is right and trying to overthrow that tyranny. i do not believe in satan or worship him any more than the fictional charecter god.
ReplyDeletehorrible atrocities have been commited in the name of religion. non have ever been commited because of lack of religion. just saying.
we are also free to make our own morals with what we think is right. (no obligations to stone a wife to death for having sex before she maried you.) your good book actually sais that. XD. jesus did exist his story was just greatly corrupted by christians attempting to gain fame in their religion. too bad it worked :(
i greatly respect the fictional character satan for rebelling against tyranny and using his own brain not not some guys 2000 years ago who wrote the bible (and also believed the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it)
the Flying Spagetti Monster and the runescape god Guthix are both equally plausible as your god. they just dont claim to own the worlds most succesfull human fights and peace activist (Jesus)
please no religous hate comments or flaming
sorry bout the double post
ReplyDeletei respect the fictional charecter satan for doing what he believed is right and trying to overthrow that tyranny. i do not believe in satan or worship him any more than the fictional charecter god.
ReplyDeletehorrible atrocities have been commited in the name of religion. non have ever been commited because of lack of religion. just saying.
we are also free to make our own morals with what we think is right. (no obligations to stone a wife to death for having sex before she maried you.) your good book actually sais that. XD. jesus did exist his story was just greatly corrupted by christians attempting to gain fame in their religion. too bad it worked :(
i greatly respect the fictional character satan for rebelling against tyranny and using his own brain not not some guys 2000 years ago who wrote the bible (and also believed the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it)
the Flying Spagetti Monster and the runescape god Guthix are both equally plausible as your god. they just dont claim to own the worlds most succesfull human fights and peace activist (Jesus)
I just came by and saw this, i respect religious people with different thoughts and i do not believe in hell or heaven or even a certain god, but what kind of god will send non believers to hell, sure not a good one(according to what you are saying)
ReplyDeletealso i thought that god is the only one who decide and judge about that,not People!!! and some theists have a sense of superiority, that's terrible really
why would a god care about his ego more than morals ?? weird
you daughter was so close to know the truth and she had compassion for people,you took that from her
I'd appreciate it if you would interact with what I've written before making some of the statements you have here.
ReplyDeleteIf you had carefully read my post you would know that only a good God would punish open rebellion. Please interact with my analogy of the good judge if you have issue with this truth.
And how exactly is teaching what God has clearly communicated in his word judgmental? I'm not the one who judges atheists or anyone else but I do know from scripture that eternal life is found only in Christ. How else can God judge those whose sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus. How else can they be found innocent?
"And how exactly is teaching what God has clearly communicated in his word judgmental? "
ReplyDeleteMany believers don't agree with your concept on hell and sending atheists to it. they prove
this point of view from the bible too ( God's book, words) so it's definitely about you judging other
people because of their thoughts not their acts
even some christians think that atheists are going to heaven because they do good things not for gaining eternal life or fearing hell
I have a great idea for this good god. a heaven for all with different levels, related to human good achievements?
how would such a good god create such a terrible thing as hell? does he enjoy seeing people suffering there? I don't get it, i really want to know, if god so loved the world why we see pain ??
If god is so perfect and good, all he creates will be perfect and good
"Many believers don’t agree with your concept on hell and sending atheists to it. they prove
ReplyDeletethis point of view from the bible too ( God’s book, words) so it’s definitely about you judging other
people because of their thoughts not their acts"
The historical, orthodox doctrine of hell is undisputed. Yes, recently some have challenged the idea, motivated, I believe, not by the teaching of scripture but by the inability to accept that the fluffy care bear God of modern evangelicalism could ever send someone to eternal punishment.
To often in our churches only the attribute of his divine love is spoken of and not his equally holy attributes of righteousness, judgment and wrath.
"even some christians think that atheists are going to heaven because they do good things not for gaining eternal life or fearing hell
I have a great idea for this good god. a heaven for all with different levels, related to human good achievements?"
Honestly, any 'Christian' who thinks atheists can get to heaven based on 'good achievements' doesn't understand even the basic tenets of Christianity.
Scripture clearly teaches that even the righteous, good things we do are as filthy rags in God's eyes. Every good deed is motivated, at root with self-interest and not God's glory. We are called to repent of our dead works and cling to the finished, perfect work of Christ in faith. This is the only salvation available to us.
"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)
"how would such a good god create such a terrible thing as hell? does he enjoy seeing people suffering there? I don’t get it, i really want to know, if god so loved the world why we see pain ??"
I'll let scripture speak for itself here: "As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?"
All pain, sorrow and death is a result of sin, which is rebellion against God. And when you think about it, it makes sense. If we oppose the God who created us to be like him and live according to his holy and righteous commandments what would be the natural consequence of doing things in contradiction to God's created order? Chaos! A wrecking of that good and natural order of things. The end result is suffering and pain.
Question God's goodness if you like but God has a plan to restore the universe to its original blessed state.
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:1-4)
"i was born a christian and im not convinced by the christian faith or even any religious faith , because there’s no evidence in religion, but many evidences that reject the idea of existent god or gods, in one word religion is man made."
ReplyDeleteFirst I want to clarify something: No person is born a Christian. One must be 'born-again' to be a Christian. To be born-again is a supernatural act of God whereby he gives us new hearts that enables us to come to Christ in repentance and faith. Any faith apart from this is not saving faith and often ends in total unbelief, as in your case.
What evidence do you possess that shows God does not exist? How can you prove that the Christian religion is man-made and not inspired by God?
"{ Faith means not wanting to know what is true.}"
Where do you come up with this definition? The scriptural definition of faith is this: 'Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (Heb 11:1)
"there is many contradictions in bible, sometimes god is good sometimes he’s evil, seems that god have two personalities ( good and evil) even priests talk about how god was hard ( eye for an eye, killings, wars, violence in old testament) and how he turned to be good in new testament.."
There are no true contradictions in the bible but there are paradoxes. One paradox is that God is wrathful, yet merciful. These are simply two holy attributes of his divine character. And if you read carefully the Old Testament talks of his mercy as well as his wrath just as the New Testament speaks of his wrath as well as his forgiveness. God is just and must uphold his justice against those who commit evil to be true to his character. At the same time he has chosen to extend his love and mercy so that man might not perish. he did this at great personal cost, sending his Son to die a terrible death on the cross so that he could fulfill his justice while at the same time being merciful.
More later...
Exactly none born religious until society , family brainwash his mind with superstitious stories, i mean i was raised as a christian and believed in Christianity for a long period, then i started to think and realized that all religions are lies, including Christianity
ReplyDelete"What evidence do you possess that shows God does not exist? How can you prove that the Christian religion is man-made and not inspired by God?"
What evidence do you possess that shows Zeus, Baal, Aphrodite, Bacchus, Brahma, Jupiter, Horus, Venus and many others do not exist? How can you prove that all old or new religions except Christianity are man-made?
I know your answer, because you think that these religions and gods are superstitions , lies and myths... for same reasons you don't beleive in those gods, i don't beleive in yours.
lots of evidence shows the truth, logical , philosophical, scientific evidences, even after reading the bible you'll notice the contradictions, if you want i can send you a message in details showing the uncountable evidences on how religions and gods are man made, including Christianity.
the god you are talking about is merciful, just, and great ( all the stories in old testament shows your god, as an angry one, wants revenge, killings, wars, human humiliation ...and after presenting these stories, "they say Oh god how merciful and just you are" and they start to sing "him" a song!!
Jesus was a normal person, he had some philosophical thoughts, but he was not the son of an imaginary god, Christianity took many ideologies from pagans like as 25 December, son of god, virgin Mary...
"God is just and must uphold his justice against those who commit evil to be true to his character" Atheists are not necessary evil, they can be good people with pure heart even more than you think
Please read the passage of The Sheep and the Goats : Matthew 25:31.... This god may judge on acts not thoughts.
Peace